Re: [IUG] Non-Roman characters - copying into Millennium bibs

["West, Barbara - HPL" <Barbara dot West at cityofhouston dot net>]

Michael, just to clarify, nothing was greyed out -- it simply wasn't there
at all.

I am awaiting further testing by Houston catalogers now that III has
restored some tables apparently wiped out by an upgrade to a later version
of R2006. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Emly [mailto:m dot emly at leeds dot ac dot uk] 
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:11 AM
To: innopac at innopacusers dot org
Subject: Re: [IUG] INNOPAC Digest, Vol 49, Issue 54

Dear Barbara and Bob

I thought that I'd try this too, as my technical environment seems a bit
different from Houston.  We have Arial MS Unicode installed and available
for both Word and for Millennium.  Normally, for the languages we catalogue
(Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Thai), I can copy from Word into Millennium no
problem.

For Telugu, I had no problem inputting in Word by selecting from the "Insert
Symbol" menu, once I had selected the Unicode font.  And the characters
displayed when I pasted into Millennium.  However, when I saved and closed
the record, they seemed to disappear and weren't there when I reopened the
record (I have to confess I didn't check whether they really were not there,
or just didn't display).

Checking in the manual I note that the "greyed out" reported by Barbara
indicatd that the character is not supported or is invalid and therefore is
not valid for input and is not selectable.  I think this explains why I can
copy and paste but the characters disappear on saving the record.

It is worth noting that the MARC-8 standard only supports a limited number
of non-roman character sets - Telugu is not one of them (this is a complex
area, where the environment is changing rapidly but no neat solutions
currently exist - I'd refer colleagues to documents on the LC website for
further info -
http://www.loc.gov/marc/specifications/speccharintro.html).   So if
Houston is attempting to share records with other libraries, use of Telugu
characters could cause problems!  However this per se isn't what prevents
their use in Millennium - as I indicated earlier, Leeds is quite happily
using Thai characters in a local field, and the Millennium character map
indicates that these characters (i.e. this section of the Unicode character
set) are supported within Millennium.

I'm not quite sure how or why certain parts of Unicode aren't supported by
Millennium but it's clearly worth checking the character map before
embarking on any plans for languages not supported by the Marc-8 standard.

Michael

 
********************************************
Michael Emly
Collection Management Services Team Leader Leeds University Library tel. +44
(0)113 343 6444
email: m dot emly at leeds dot ac dot uk
Postal address: 
Brotherton Library, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT   


Message: 5
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:27:10 -0600
From: "West, Barbara - HPL" <Barbara dot West at cityofhouston dot net>
Subject: Re: [IUG] Non-Roman characters - copying into Millennium bibs
To: "'IUG INNOPAC List'" <innopac at innopacusers dot org>
Message-ID:
	
<0BD1505F7EB5114B9956F32D699303C91FCB1698 at 611wex03 dot cityofhouston dot net>
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi, Bob.  I Googled Telugu fonts and downloaded iitmtel.ttf and TLHM0ntt.ttf
(TL-TTHemalatha) but I don't remember the sites where I obtained them.
Sorry.

I don't think our IT department is going to want to go with remapping
keyboards, especially since I am not sure why this particular cataloger
wants to interpose Word between OCLC and Millennium.  If she's trying to do
original cataloging, she needs to forget about trying to use Word and rely
on Millennium's character map, IMHO. 

Thanks for the additional insight, though.  I'll file it away.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Rasmussen [mailto:ras at anzio dot com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:18 AM
To: IUG INNOPAC List
Subject: Re: [IUG] Non-Roman characters - copying into Millennium bibs

A slight correction on what I said earlier. It turns out that Telugu, along
with Armenian, Punjabi, and Tamil, are a special class in Windows, and Anzio
was not handling the keystrokes in these languages properly. 
This will be fixed soon.

By the way, I am testing with the Code2000 font, which handles Telugu
properly (as near as I can tell).

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, Bob Rasmussen wrote:

> Ooh, a Unicode question!
> 
> Please identify the Telugu fonts, and where you got them. 
> 
> If these are "proper" Unicode fonts, the data will store in Word in 
> the Telugu area of Unicode, which are characters in the hex 0c00 to 
> 0c7f range. When you highlight and copy them to the clipboard, they 
> will go in as Unicode. When you paste them into Millennium, you will 
> paste them as Unicode, IF Millennium supports that (I don't know the
answer to that).
> 
> However, the fact that you didn't change your keyboard configuration 
> to enter the characters suggests that that is not what's going on.
> 
> A non-proper implementation would simply substitute Telugu characters 
> for Roman ones, and would store the data with Roman values. Put 
> another way, it LOOKS like Telugu data, if you use these fonts, but it

> isn't really; it's Roman data. Won't work nohow.
> 
> Once you are using a Unicode font, you will need to use a Telugu 
> keyboard layout to enter Telugu data. To see the layout of this
keyboard
map, go to
>    http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/reference/keyboards.mspx
> and select Telugu. Or, you can enter any Unicode character in Word by 
> knowing its Unicode value, and using the Alt key. You can find Unicode

> values at this page:
>    http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0C00.pdf
> or use your print copy of "The Unicode 5.0 Standard", ISBN 0321480910.

> You do all have one, don't you?
> 
> Finally, if pasting into Millennium's GUI module won't work, you may 
> obtain better results by using Anzio and the character interface.
> Anzio has very good handling of Unicode. You will want both your 
> terminal type in Millennium and your character set in Anzio set to
Unicode
UTF-8.
> 
> I'd be happy to assist on any of this.
> 
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, West, Barbara - HPL wrote:
> 
> > I have been going around and around with variants on this question 
> > for a couple of years now as one of our member libraries begins to 
> > add records for materials in Hindi, Telugu, etc.
> > 
> > The most recent variant of the question is:  can Telugu characters 
> > be copied from a Word document and pasted into a III bib record?
> > 
> > My immediate response was that since MilCat is designed to use the 
> > character map for such purposes, and that the map containing Telugu 
> > characters appears to be intact, no.
> > 
> > Experimentation has borne me out.  I do not speak or read Telugu at 
> > all, but I opened a Word document, set the font to one of the two 
> > Telugu fonts I had downloaded, and entered some random characters
from
my standard keyboard.
> > They showed up as what appeared to be Telugu characters in the Word 
> > document, but when I highlighted them and pasted them into a new III

> > bib, only the Roman key equivalents pasted in.  This was what I 
> > expected, since Word is not MARC, etc.
> > 
> > Has anyone out there successfully pasted non-Roman characters from a

> > Windows file of any sort into a bib record and had the non-Roman 
> > characters show up correctly?  If so -- how did you accomplish it?
> > 
> > Because I know someone will ask, let me add that we have had mixed 
> > results importing records in Telugu, etc. from OCLC that display the

> > characters correctly in Millennium as well.  I have my fingers 
> > crossed that R2007 will improve this situation and am willing to 
> > wait and see.  This is an different issue altogether.
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Barbara F. West, Assistant Database Administrator Houston Area 
> > Automated Library Network (HALAN) 500 McKinney Ave. Suite 300 
> > Houston, TX 77002-5000
> > 
> > Phone:   832-393-1410
> > Fax:     832-393-1427
> > E-Mail:  Barbara dot West at cityofhouston dot net
> >  
> > If you would like to receive periodic emails from Mayor Bill White 
> > and the City of Houston on topics of interest to you and your 
> > neighborhood, please go to www.houstontx.gov 
> > <http://www.houstontx.gov>  and register with CitizensNet.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> > 
> 
> Regards,
> ....Bob Rasmussen,   President,   Rasmussen Software, Inc.
> 
> personal e-mail: ras at anzio dot com
>  company e-mail: rsi at anzio dot com
>           voice: (US) 503-624-0360 (9:00-6:00 Pacific Time)
>             fax: (US) 503-624-0760
>             web: http://www.anzio.com
> 

Regards,
....Bob Rasmussen,   President,   Rasmussen Software, Inc.

personal e-mail: ras at anzio dot com
 company e-mail: rsi at anzio dot com
          voice: (US) 503-624-0360 (9:00-6:00 Pacific Time)
            fax: (US) 503-624-0760
            web: http://www.anzio.com
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